Whether or not the world is rational is a question that is rarely asked. I suspect this is because the answer to this is guided by opinion and emotion much like any other religious questions. I would like to define the word rational in terms of understandability for simplicity; however, it seems that doing so would simplify the argument too much. A reductionist atheist I would presume sees the world as obviously rational(although due to their individualistic origins this might not be a good assumption). This is because, when you get down to it, everything is the reasonable result of rational, causal events. Therefore assuming you know the basics of these causal events, you can understand them (here lies a mighty flaw to the perspective though: that you -can- know all the basics, more on that later). This leads to a focus on the rational(what is), rather than the irrational(what is not)
Alternatively, a theist would assume that the world itself is not rational, as its source god acts without explanation. It is by definition not understandable-- "god works in mysterious ways" and all that jazz. In this sense, the theist places their focus on the irrational, or by the atheists' definition: that which is -not-. Given this is the tip of the spear of the argument between the two but in my opinion is the absolute least important and most distracting aspect of it. They are not so much arguing about existence, so much as semantics. They argue past each other and may as well speak a different language. But I digress...
I disagree with both groups but it is difficult to pinpoint the ways in which I do. A good place to start is that for an atheist, is the earlier mentioned assumption that -if- we understand the basics, we can understand everything beyond them. I see two flaws here. One is my favorite subject of scaled self-reference. "If we understand then we can understand". There must always be a level beforehand. Even if the digital universe hypothesis, that there is a final limit of scale, the study of the interactions at that final infinitesimal scale would be of an unforeseen complexity. This is the second flaw: the complexity of interaction, despite being in my opinion rational-consistent-causal, is absolutely not understandable. I mean to say that, while hindsight might be usable to explain something, there is no predictive value. This flaw is huge when considered at all scales.
How does one explain Psychology in terms of Newtonian Physics? How does one explain a political uprising in terms of Chemistry? Given it is easy(sometimes) to explain singular events one scale above, the structure and function of DNA in terms of chemistry. But to go 2 or more scales you must either use a symbology that loses the lower layer information, or must have an understanding of the whole of the lower layer. I see that this may seem a bit tenuous, so I hope to give this a more detailed explanation in the future.
This leads me to claim that rationality is, oddly enough, irrational. I do not have enough "evidence" as strong evidentialist reductionists would demand to claim that evidentialist reductionism is rational. A self referential loop that leaves us with only irrational options: reject it entirely due to self destruction? accept it anyway? or my favorite, pick something in between? To reject the concept of evidence outright to me is absurd. To deny that something happens because of something else borders on madness. But despite this, rejecting things outright because of insufficient evidence, to reject irrationality outright brings one into an overconfident trap, and one that is detrimental to what it is to be human. To only swim in an ocean of certainty is to attempt to swim in ice.
This brings me back to the questions raised by defining rationality as what is, and irrationality as what is not. I'd rather define rationality as what definitely is, and irrationality as what -could- be. The epic failures of course are irrational, but so are the epic victors. They are risk-takers. To rely on rationality alone, is to rely on stagnation and status quo. To see the world as rational, and simultaneously reject the irrational is to reject not only change for the worse, but also change for the better.
Friday, May 2, 2014
Monday, December 19, 2011
Darwin's Error #1 Digitization
The Origin of Species, or as I like to call it, the Digitization of Life presented a great model that got people thinking in the terms of how life advances. But to say Darwin had a complete theory is to say Newton, or even Einstein had the final revelation. It's nonsense to believe in the perfection of his theory. I call this the Digitization, because, much like digital technology does to analog signals, discrete points (mating) are treated as the entire signal, ignoring the necessary understanding that much of the information is lost between the points. In this perspective, all the intricacies of life are pinned down as something to improve chances of mating.
Now, it is a perfectly good model for items of such short lifespan (e.g. microscopic organisms) that it is beyond our comprehension to try to imagine the temporal space between generations. But as the lifespan of organisms gets larger and larger, biological evolutionary mechanisms get usurped by social evolution with its own unique set of rules. Biological evolution likes to sweep it under the rug by saying whatever happened to survive is the species that was more fit. The common explanation of social evolution is a simple process of males vying to "impress the female" and females vying to "choose the strongest male". The perspective treats life like it exists in a vacuum, where nothing important comes from the non-breeding parts of a species (after all, they just die out), and also there being no useful aspect to the species except for being the strongest one that breeds. In other words in the [common conception of the] Darwinist perspective, there is no room for empathy. This falls to pieces if even one example of an evolutionary change can be found that was influenced by a non-breeding member of an animal society(yes, animals have society too I'm not talking social Darwinism for humans.. yet).
If one example of social learning could be observed in the animal kingdom, then it is proof enough that the non-breeding portions of a society are still an important part. Is it completely unreasonable to believe that one animal can learn what not to do from another that is so bad at living that one could only call it a "fool". Even if there was little to no genetic relation between these two animals one that is smart enough to see how not to act would go on to be considered more likely to breed. Would it be possible to imagine that without the foolish animal, the smarter one could make the same mistakes simply because of the lack of a bad example, thus becoming a non-breeding one himself. Oddly enough, he himself could even become the fool for a newer generation. There are a lot of hypotheticals here, but I feel its an important thought experiment.
Society is more of a constant amorphous system that species swim through as they breed. Back to the signal analogy, societal interactions could be viewed as "high frequency" (in relation to the low sampling frequency of breeding cycles). When you look at a system using a sampling frequency that is too low, you lose ALL higher frequency information, and this is the esoteric beef I have with the current general understanding of evolution. In the world of cultural evolution, the lifespan of ideas, attitudes, ideals and actions can be much shorter or much longer than the lifespan if their biological carriers. Taking a perspective so limiting as treating a halfway point (or even quarter-way in the case of humans) in a life as the end goal is naive at best.
I suppose the end-goal of this is to relay the understanding that genes aren't everything, not even most of it all. To believe this is so is to make it a self-fulfilling prophecy where humans focus on an any-means necessary breed as much as possible attitude. They forget all of the aspects of life that brought them to that point, and don't care much about anything that happens after because they've achieved their goal. Alternatively, even if science cannot explain the deep complexity that happens in the myriad of different livelihoods does not mean it has to be squished out of perception so we can understand the "big picture"(albeit in a flawed manner).
*I think i must emphasize again, that these are not necessarily errors that Darwin himself made, but instead are errors that emerge when his theories are taken to the utmost intellectual extremes as complete.
Now, it is a perfectly good model for items of such short lifespan (e.g. microscopic organisms) that it is beyond our comprehension to try to imagine the temporal space between generations. But as the lifespan of organisms gets larger and larger, biological evolutionary mechanisms get usurped by social evolution with its own unique set of rules. Biological evolution likes to sweep it under the rug by saying whatever happened to survive is the species that was more fit. The common explanation of social evolution is a simple process of males vying to "impress the female" and females vying to "choose the strongest male". The perspective treats life like it exists in a vacuum, where nothing important comes from the non-breeding parts of a species (after all, they just die out), and also there being no useful aspect to the species except for being the strongest one that breeds. In other words in the [common conception of the] Darwinist perspective, there is no room for empathy. This falls to pieces if even one example of an evolutionary change can be found that was influenced by a non-breeding member of an animal society(yes, animals have society too I'm not talking social Darwinism for humans.. yet).
If one example of social learning could be observed in the animal kingdom, then it is proof enough that the non-breeding portions of a society are still an important part. Is it completely unreasonable to believe that one animal can learn what not to do from another that is so bad at living that one could only call it a "fool". Even if there was little to no genetic relation between these two animals one that is smart enough to see how not to act would go on to be considered more likely to breed. Would it be possible to imagine that without the foolish animal, the smarter one could make the same mistakes simply because of the lack of a bad example, thus becoming a non-breeding one himself. Oddly enough, he himself could even become the fool for a newer generation. There are a lot of hypotheticals here, but I feel its an important thought experiment.
Society is more of a constant amorphous system that species swim through as they breed. Back to the signal analogy, societal interactions could be viewed as "high frequency" (in relation to the low sampling frequency of breeding cycles). When you look at a system using a sampling frequency that is too low, you lose ALL higher frequency information, and this is the esoteric beef I have with the current general understanding of evolution. In the world of cultural evolution, the lifespan of ideas, attitudes, ideals and actions can be much shorter or much longer than the lifespan if their biological carriers. Taking a perspective so limiting as treating a halfway point (or even quarter-way in the case of humans) in a life as the end goal is naive at best.
I suppose the end-goal of this is to relay the understanding that genes aren't everything, not even most of it all. To believe this is so is to make it a self-fulfilling prophecy where humans focus on an any-means necessary breed as much as possible attitude. They forget all of the aspects of life that brought them to that point, and don't care much about anything that happens after because they've achieved their goal. Alternatively, even if science cannot explain the deep complexity that happens in the myriad of different livelihoods does not mean it has to be squished out of perception so we can understand the "big picture"(albeit in a flawed manner).
*I think i must emphasize again, that these are not necessarily errors that Darwin himself made, but instead are errors that emerge when his theories are taken to the utmost intellectual extremes as complete.
Tuesday, May 3, 2011
The Clergy's task... and The Wild and Crazy World
Hah, accidentally deleted Liam's comment on my last post. Stupid blogger. Thats okay, I had a lot to say as a response, so I'm just making full post as a response.
In respect to your comment on Kurt Vonnegut's Tralfamadore race(those that experience the entirety of existence simultaneously) I feel that the original purpose of the clergy (before statism really took over) were to have the overarching understanding of all known knowledge at the time and make the general decisions. Now though, we seem to know too much, the world, and every individual in it (at least those that break the window and step outside) is in a permanent state of information overload.
I would argue that this isn't the first time it happened though. Before we had shamans, just one or a few men in a village that is considered the wisest, who's purpose was to guide the confused masses, albeit much smaller. Then as we advanced, we gained too much, and we needed coalitions of wise men (the clergy) to handle all the information passing between people. I think it eventually became (or maybe always was) a tool to keep the knowledge secret so the masses would not go into the perils of information shock. It may be an argument for secrecy: to keep the illusion of order and peace by reducing the number of people who truly understand that we each hold what is a supercomputer (a god in old terms...) in our own head. Imagine a world with 6.9 billion people each understood the full potential of their own individual mind. It would be wild.
Now though, we have empiricism, and materialism (science) mixed in the bag, which is essentially antithetical to the old ways, and these are creating some very complex problems. I sure as hell don't fully understand them.
Back to the Tralfamadores, one could argue that the groups of those that amalgamate the important pieces of information are the closest things we humans have to this (holding to the assumption that experiencing reality like they do is inherently impossible). Consider that we think of groups as more important than individuals (hey, corporations have rights of citizens now right?). Corporations, States, and Religions are the wolves, lions, and Dinosaurs of the wild world we live in now. Blogs are just bacterium, and I'm just a highly complex virus. (whats the internet then? a primordial soup? I wonder what legged critters are going to walk out of it)
In respect to your comment on Kurt Vonnegut's Tralfamadore race(those that experience the entirety of existence simultaneously) I feel that the original purpose of the clergy (before statism really took over) were to have the overarching understanding of all known knowledge at the time and make the general decisions. Now though, we seem to know too much, the world, and every individual in it (at least those that break the window and step outside) is in a permanent state of information overload.
I would argue that this isn't the first time it happened though. Before we had shamans, just one or a few men in a village that is considered the wisest, who's purpose was to guide the confused masses, albeit much smaller. Then as we advanced, we gained too much, and we needed coalitions of wise men (the clergy) to handle all the information passing between people. I think it eventually became (or maybe always was) a tool to keep the knowledge secret so the masses would not go into the perils of information shock. It may be an argument for secrecy: to keep the illusion of order and peace by reducing the number of people who truly understand that we each hold what is a supercomputer (a god in old terms...) in our own head. Imagine a world with 6.9 billion people each understood the full potential of their own individual mind. It would be wild.
Now though, we have empiricism, and materialism (science) mixed in the bag, which is essentially antithetical to the old ways, and these are creating some very complex problems. I sure as hell don't fully understand them.
Back to the Tralfamadores, one could argue that the groups of those that amalgamate the important pieces of information are the closest things we humans have to this (holding to the assumption that experiencing reality like they do is inherently impossible). Consider that we think of groups as more important than individuals (hey, corporations have rights of citizens now right?). Corporations, States, and Religions are the wolves, lions, and Dinosaurs of the wild world we live in now. Blogs are just bacterium, and I'm just a highly complex virus. (whats the internet then? a primordial soup? I wonder what legged critters are going to walk out of it)
Tuesday, April 26, 2011
An interesting and complex conversation
If anyone is curious to know what I'm all about, or what my natural voice is like, this is a conversation I had recently with a very good friend of mine. Tried to remove the typo's and censored any names. This bounces around in many different directions, but I'm sure it would be a fun read for anyone who likes abstract thought. I didn't really feel like removing the few unimportant bits, but they are minuscule.
[Friend]
Not to help you procrastinate or anything
[Chaorder Gradient]
but i lurve procrastination
[Friend]
Ron Paul on Colbert...
Oh dear
[Chaorder Gradient]
really
[Friend]
Yeah
[Chaorder Gradient]
whens this happening
[Friend]
Tonight
icefilms.info
[Chaorder Gradient]
should be entertaining
[Chaorder Gradient]
hehe i made up a religion:
"
Nothing and Everything:
Everything, is All you do know.
Nothing is all that exist that you do not know.
One's Everything does not overlap with another's,
Nor does ones Nothing overlap with another's.
More often than not, one's Everything overlaps with another's Nothing.
Understanding this is a dire paradox to be contemplated.
"
[Friend]
Mmmm
[Chaorder Gradient]
nice mindfuck :)
[Friend]
Not really
[Chaorder Gradient]
i like the description i gave it
[Friend]
Simple concept
[Chaorder Gradient]
well not for you
simple for those that understand it... most dont
[Friend]
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704547604576263261679848814.html#mod=djempersonal
I was reading this today
I haven't finished yet
Human predictability when looked at as an organism is very easy
Individuals can be charted with reasonable accuracy but require far more information
Why this is novel in this article seems silly...
Asimov wrote about it in the 60's or 70's
And all one had to do was open their eyes at that point to realize what he said was true
But I guess people don't think critically about what is out there to read
(Also, I don't make the presumption that Asimov had the original idea... I'm just pointing to a place where one could start connecting the dots from)
/tangent?
This may sound weird...
But I think I
I've allowed myself to look at the world in such existential or more so, at such a distance, that I have a hard time with personal empathy
It could also be that I was engaged and haven't had any sort of intimate relationship in over two years
But I prefer the cognitive evolution argument better
[Chaorder Gradient]
sry was takin a quick shower
[Friend]
I can type shit faster than you can clean yourself
BAM!
[Chaorder Gradient]
oh yeah i've kinda lost my handle on normal human reality myself
but i like it here
[Friend]
I dunno... I feel like I better understand humanity
[Chaorder Gradient]
in all honesty i got an interesting short circuit from losing a good number of my friends in 1 way or another in favor of {FriendD}
[Friend]
But am apathetic to the individual people themselves
[Chaorder Gradient]
i'm kinda the other way though, i'm more empathetic now
I can see where just about everyone i know has gone wrong, how they've become misguided, and i can see myself in them a little bit in a different way
[Friend]
For sure
Also, I've gotten better at saying the right thing
[Chaorder Gradient]
also {FriendD} and I have essentially made up and are perfectly fine with eachother, even sans the relationship
no need for the akward :-P
[Friend]
But it's more mechanical, scientific, and sure than before
It's like pressing buttons
[Chaorder Gradient]
i'm sort of bridging the path, i'm moving into my own reality where i have to pick and choose between the mechanical reality and the human reality
[Friend]
I'd say I've moved to the realm of human mechanics
And I've also gotten better at maintaining complete inner balance
[Chaorder Gradient]
I've become AWARE of human mechanics, but with the understanding that each person has their own unique path
some fall into stereotypes, and then you can generalize, but theres always a little uniqueness there
(its just nice to know i'm not the only one on this kind of path, you're presence is much appreciated :-P)
[Friend]
No, I know... but I mean, like I find it real easy to pick out the words to make someone smile, laugh, or feel better when down
Almost like typing commands on a keyboard
At the individual level
[Chaorder Gradient]
oh true, I think once you break out, that is one of the first things you learn
[Friend]
With relatively little analysis
[Chaorder Gradient]
right, it's a little disorienting, and dehumanizing, but you gotta roll with it hehe
[Friend]
I think I grok humanity
And grok people
[Chaorder Gradient]
yeah
[Friend]
I <3 Stranger In A Strange Land
[Chaorder Gradient]
wots that? :-P
[Friend]
Awesome book
Heinlein
[Chaorder Gradient]
what was that book with the crazy insane meta-writing in it?
[Friend]
His best
meta-writing?
You mean House of Leaves?
[Chaorder Gradient]
yeahh that was it
[Friend]
My book of weird?
[Chaorder Gradient]
yarr
still need to read that
[Friend]
Read....
Stranger
Atlas Shrugged
And then watch Avatar: The Last Airbender: Legend of Ankh
(All three seasons)
[Chaorder Gradient]
have you read GEB yet? it will possibly shake your belief that you "know" people simply on the basis of the concept of actually knowing something
[Friend]
GEB?
[Chaorder Gradient]
Whats Legend of the Ankh? i'm in the middle of watching Avatar
[Friend]
It's the TV series from Nick
[Chaorder Gradient]
related to the last airbender
?
[Friend]
It kind of had two names
Yeah
[Chaorder Gradient]
ohh
so the same show
yeah i'm in the middle of it, amazing show
[Friend]
Best show ever
[Chaorder Gradient]
arguably, yes
you should watch Ugly Americans, my favorite social comentary show
[Friend]
Mmm
Will I end up disgusted?
I'm becoming progressively less interested in Americans...
[Chaorder Gradient]
uhm, it can be lewd at times, but with the understanding that mythical creatures don't actually exist, and you insert real people in the places of the monsters and demons and zombies, its glorious social comedy
no its about how disgusting americans are
(i'm gettin disgusted with them as well, the social fault lines are building a damning pressure)
[Friend]
Indeed
Real shame too...
It doesn't need to be this way
[Chaorder Gradient]
yeah, i mean there are some bastions of hope around, but I cant see anything getting better without it getting worse personally
i'm not being nihilistic, its just the way it seems to be going
[Friend]
No, agreed
Though...
I am tempted to start a social awakening
But only so tempted
[Chaorder Gradient]
I'm sorta right there with you.. lol but i dont know where/how to start
i'm currently just trolling the internet in certain places, mostly Disinfo(sort of an atheist bastion... almost too much so)
[Friend]
Actually...
I have a plan
[Chaorder Gradient]
hehe
[Friend]
One that would work, most likely
[Chaorder Gradient]
hehe
[Friend]
But I'm not sure I want to
[Chaorder Gradient]
well i'm aware that it is truly a crisis of faith of the entire country (and the more you dig the more you see it as the whole world.... which is daunting)
hence my not knowing how/where to start
[Friend]
Gmail
It's tertiary, but you're smart enough to put it together
{FriendC} is not on the cognitive level I am, but she understands media
And she can help create viral youtube videos, which are essential
Also, she's a bit idealistic and peace loving for my standards
But she grasps necessity
Even if she'll disagree with some of the "evil" my ideas may unleash
[Chaorder Gradient]
humm
yeah i guess it would be necessary
yeah i'm trying to reduce the evil as much as possible
[Friend]
I'm not out for violence
I just see it as an acceptable consequence
[Chaorder Gradient]
the end goal will require violence i fear
[Friend]
What we need is first contact
What any rational alien species that did not mean us harm would never give us is just that
I feel humans lack scope
Both in terms of humanity and the universe
Knowing and embracing that your personal Everything is in reality Nothing is the hardest thing for people to grasp
Yet it is the essential element
Or at least one of them
[Chaorder Gradient]
agreed
I mean, is it really that difficult to function in a world in which you are unimportant and know nothing compared to the collective knowledge out there to be known?
[Chaorder Gradient]
yarp
but trying to understand the whole can make someone go mad
[Friend]
But understanding that you don't need to understand the whole but still need to learn...
I think that's wisdom
What's funny is how true on how many levels that is
I mean, blinkin' simple concept
And so true in the humans unit
In relationships
In everything
[Chaorder Gradient]
hehe
[Friend]
The ability to embrace yourself, to embrace others, to seek to learn about both, and to be comfortable knowing that you will never know everything about either
Dana once asked me how I could love someone I didn't know everything about
I told her that I didn't know everything about myself, let alone someone else, and if I required that I knew everything about someone in order to love them, then I could never love anyone
I don't think the answer set well with her
[Chaorder Gradient]
good way of looking at things
its a style of thought that most people dont have
One thing that is holding me back is knowing that we dont know the stakes and repercussions to attempting an awakening
there ARE people besides us that are awakened, and they have made the conscious choice to not pursue what we desire
and there are people who are NOT awakened, but have gotten a taste, and throw their lives away at a relatively minute task
[Friend]
Yes, I know
[Chaorder Gradient]
its still really complex, and I'm still trying to piece it all together (all while trying to finish my schooling.. and looking for a job... and all tihs other crap thats looking more and more mundane...)
[Friend]
Yep
I go to school to get a job...
I get a job so I can provide for my needs and maybe some of my wants
I'm not sure where living is
[Chaorder Gradient]
hehe
[Friend]
Honestly, Avatar made me feel more emotions than many other things in a long time
Or at least much deeper
[Chaorder Gradient]
its a brilliant piece of art, that I'm sure of
i've (unfortunately) seen the ending, but i'm only half way through
beautiful ending though
and i kinda cant wait till the next series
(hopefully it doesnt go downhill like so many good things have)
[Friend]
The ending is good... but how they got there is so much more important
[Chaorder Gradient]
i know, i've seen enough to know that
i had a lull in watching it so i'm gunna start it over
i meant to ask, did you ever see the movie?
[Friend]
I'm going to buy it on DVD
The live action one?
[Chaorder Gradient]
yeah
[Friend]
Yes
[Chaorder Gradient]
what i realized watching it, (and it made it better, even though the critics will say it is terrible) is that it was not made for youth, it was meant to scarethe shit out of their parents
[Friend]
Also...
I think these days I'm a Taoist
[Chaorder Gradient]
racism was blatant in the movie; and it was built in a way where the "before the war" time, the air nomads WERE buhdist monks
i even think they wear the same uniform
[Friend]
Yes
[Chaorder Gradient]
I identify with taoism, but i find i got a little confuscionism in there
[Friend]
Well yes
That too
[Chaorder Gradient]
i see the importance of the "mundane" so to speak
because without at least a trivial understanding of it, yo uwill unwwittingly leave the rest of humanity behind (and effectively become a new Hitler)
[Friend]
Heh
I know I have that potential
[Chaorder Gradient]
haha
you know what i realized this all is though
what we've both probably stumbled on
and its a little daunting
is the knowledge of good and evil
[Friend]
Huh
That is an interesting way of framing it
[Chaorder Gradient]
It gets complex when you realize Yin and Yang are NOT good and evil
[Friend]
I see it
[Chaorder Gradient]
but, this gets into the real complexity and pitfalls, because, i take it on faith that yin and yang are not good and evil, while another person could take yin and yang as good as evil and be as adamant as I am
[Friend]
Yin and Yang can be good and evil
But good and evil are not definite
Nor do they work against each other at all times
[Chaorder Gradient]
well yeah
its transient, differnt times they can be aligned and others they can not be
[Friend]
I think it is more the awareness that good and evil are intertwined in ways not fathomed
[Chaorder Gradient]
right
I feel the gut is really the only way to go by... you just kindof know what is and isnt
[Friend]
That in reality it is all about balance
[Chaorder Gradient]
yep
[Friend]
Hah... I miss conversations with you
[Chaorder Gradient]
haha
[Friend]
And {FriendA}, she could usually keep up
It usually got too theoretical for {FriendB} though
[Chaorder Gradient]
another daunting idea, is the concept that balance, and neutrality are synonymous with death, they are the reduction of opposing forces to nothingness
i miss {FriendA} she was cool.
[Friend]
She's still in Miami
[Chaorder Gradient]
i've seen her around once or twice, but not in a while
[Friend]
I don't think balance and neutrality need to be synonymous with life, death, or anything
I think they are independent yet intertwined concepts
Synonyms all too frequently hide a reality under or within something else
[Chaorder Gradient]
i probably need to lay off some of the esoterica :-P
very true
[Friend]
Especially when talking this abstract
[Chaorder Gradient]
one part of the simple reality (i like to call it the illusion) is the polarization of the mind: Yin: Yang, Good:Evil, Order:Chaos, Black:White. etc.
[Friend]
Yes
Love:Hate
[Chaorder Gradient]
in the illusion:
Yang=Good=Order=White and
Yin = Evil = Chaos = Black
[Friend]
Strong:Weak
Any diametrically opposed concepts fail
[Chaorder Gradient]
indeed
[Friend]
So long as asserted to be opposed
[Chaorder Gradient]
2 = 4 (the negation and combination)
it blows up in their mind, short circuits, and becomes scary
[Friend]
I also find it interesting when people think that such abstract ideas as discussed here cannot be embraced and practiced in daily life
As if they exist in another realm of existence
[Chaorder Gradient]
Well, you have to understand... that they do
[Friend]
Sort of...
[Chaorder Gradient]
the physical reality overlaps
[Friend]
Our abstractions are grounded in our physical and perceptual reality
[Chaorder Gradient]
but the mental reality are so disjointed that they consider the confusing the "Enemy"
thats what Satan is
[Friend]
Our reality is molded by our abstractions
[Chaorder Gradient]
its just that which cannot be understood in the simple reality
(I have however come to the conclusion that the simple reality is a force of order. Stupidity breeds conformity, breeds fear of the complex, and the other)
[Friend]
Mmm
[Chaorder Gradient]
My diametric curse that works out well in my head is the concept of low-frequency (analogous to order) and high-frequency (analagous to chaos)
[Friend]
Both ultimately a wave pattern just with different characteristics?
[Chaorder Gradient]
well the high frequency always has a higher frequency and the low frequency always has a lower frequency
if you can manipulate orders of magnitude, the mechanics of human relation are the same throughout
its just that directionality exists in this model
(totally saving this convo btw)
[Friend]
I know, but I'm saying that the beauty in your model is that it fits on one continuum
[Chaorder Gradient]
i've come to the point where I cannot actually project my real ideas unless i'm talking with someone lol
[Friend]
And therefore isn't consisting of diametrically opposed forces
[Chaorder Gradient]
yes and no :-P its sort of a paradox
there arent 2 opposing forces because it goes infinite in both directions
[Friend]
I'm saying it doesn't have to be
( ;
[Chaorder Gradient]
but they are oppositedirections and work differently
(personally though, another scary thought... i have a lot of those, is that i think this line that this continuum involves seems to be the directionality in evolotion)
but at some point the higher frequency realizes the importance of the low frequency (and I HOPE vice versa but I havnt seen it)
[Friend]
But I would say chaos and order are simply functions of existence
[Chaorder Gradient]
well they are emergent properties, they are states so to speak
[Friend]
And what is chaotic and what is orderly is simply a matter of perspective from any point on a continuum
[Chaorder Gradient]
for example, the controlled mass mind of the united states post-WW2 was VERY ordered
sometimes there is a dominant area though
[Friend]
A concrete example...
[Chaorder Gradient]
a second dimension in this realm though, so-called mental age. Most people arent awakened because they are kept at a very young mental age. Personally i consider my mind corrupted (I like to think of it as Alzheimers.. or ALL TIMERS) where i think from every age's perspective simultaneously
[Friend]
The chaos that is the sharing of information across the web is founded in the order that is a functional world wide network
[Chaorder Gradient]
right, the non-human factor... that gets into the area of the hypothetical singularity :-P i dont think too much about it
er i think about it i just dont like to :-P
[Friend]
But at the same time that very network is a crazy chaotic network that can be reduced to ordered hubs and so on
[Chaorder Gradient]
well order out of chaos eh?
[Friend]
And vice versa
Perspective
[Chaorder Gradient]
heh maybe order is just a relative perspective to something thats more chaotic
[Friend]
( ;
[Chaorder Gradient]
yup
perspective indeed
[Friend]
That's what I said awhile ago
lol
[Chaorder Gradient]
indeed you did
well back to my hypothetical frequency framework, that just means a general shift one way or the other as a whole
cus from some other perspective both the other two look more chaotic or more ordered
[Friend]
It means at any given point order exist in one direction and chaos in the other
[Chaorder Gradient]
(or if you are unfortunately in the middle....)
well i guess to be fair, you can never say you ARENT in the middle
unless you find out how to step outside of the framework
[Friend]
It's a continuum, thereby infinite, there is no middle
[Chaorder Gradient]
(thats why i've taken the pseudonym Chaorder Gradient)
[Friend]
Mmm
[Chaorder Gradient]
never had something i felt fit me so well :)
[Friend]
Also, I'm likely going to post this convo in a note... I doubt many will read all the way through it... it's kind of a harsh exercise in frame of mind...
[Chaorder Gradient]
plus i like this ancient woodcut that i've appropriated with the pilgrim stepping out of the mundane reality into the esoteric
I wont mind
I have a couple assorted random convo's.
[Friend]
Oh, I store interesting convos all the time
My hope would be that those I named, {FriendB}, {FriendA}, and {FriendC} would take no offense in how they are referred to
[Chaorder Gradient]
meh I hope they appreciate eccentric minds :-P we probably sound a bit conceited though....
which is in no way my intent
[Friend]
I think sometimes you're just bound to sound conceited
It's kind of funny though
Cause in reality nothing would make me happier to be able to have conversations this abstract with more people
It's just my experience that few people care to discuss this
[Chaorder Gradient]
well i'm perfectly happy to have people call me on my BS, i know theres a lot there, but the only real way to fix it is human interaction
[Friend]
Our measure and judgment of ability could be equally true for a willingness to engage in such a conversation
[Chaorder Gradient]
Ouroboros never got anywhere did he
i prefer not to censor myself, i prefer others to
I'm in a permanent state of learning
[Friend]
Pretty much
And observation
Did I ever tell you why I love science fiction?
[Chaorder Gradient]
por que?
[Friend]
Authors can write humanity however they see it, without comment on current or historical humanity
And can add whatever rules into a society as they see fir
fit*
[Chaorder Gradient]
hehe
[Friend]
I find science fiction to be the blank canvas of the authors who observe humanity and choose to comment
[Chaorder Gradient]
I think you're on the side of learning from the future, and i'm on the side of learning from the past
[Friend]
No, I learn from the past
Quite a bit
[Chaorder Gradient]
fair enough
i sometimes like to put words in other peoples mouth :-p just call me out on it
[Friend]
I just think that science fiction provides the most unadulterated critiques of society
Whenever they were writing
But often time, because of their less rigid framework it is more likely to be timeless...
Because reality may fit differently but just as well into a commentary as it did 50 years ago
And yet not be dated
[Chaorder Gradient]
Well in reality, we still dont really get messages from the future, just a 1000 interpretations of the present, and science fiction is a nice way of doing it
[Friend]
The best way in my opinion
[Chaorder Gradient]
arguably
[Friend]
For example, Asimov's Foundation Series will likely be applicable for hundreds of years
And Card's comments on humanity in the Ender series will likely apply for at least 100
And parts for much longer
[Chaorder Gradient]
indeed
[Friend]
Dune is harder to fit...
[Chaorder Gradient]
i think i still need to read dune...
theres a lot of shit i need to read really
[Friend]
Always
[Chaorder Gradient]
hehe yea
[Friend]
One of my favorite quotes:
"When he said, 'Reality is only just a word.'" - Harry Chapin, from my song.
The only quote on my FB profile
[Chaorder Gradient]
hehe
[Friend]
I think it epitomizes a lot of what we've talked about
"'Reality' is only just a word"
[Chaorder Gradient]
indeed
trust me, i'm working with at least 3 or 4 potentially conflicting frameworks at once. I accept this is towards the direction of insanity, but i feel the understanding of this keeps me sane
[Friend]
I'm not sure I have a framework
Not an external one
I think my framework is one of perspective and outlook
[Chaorder Gradient]
well i find it hard to say that you lack a framework, but that you just arent aware of it
[Friend]
Internal to the individual
My framework is one of approach, of how to perceive the world, the universe, whatever, not of how it might actually all fall into place
[Chaorder Gradient]
hehe i'm understanding of the complexity, but I do feel there is a natural order of things that we have yet to figure out (or possibly forgot)
[Friend]
Unified Theory?
[Chaorder Gradient]
this goes back to that one argument we had that one time about you saying its impossible to know anything (or that truth doesnt exist i forget), which i was against it
[Friend]
Ah...
Yes
It's impossible to know empirical truth
We lack the scope
( ;
[Chaorder Gradient]
i think we agreed that truth exists, but it may be possible that we will never know it :-P
i'm still fighting that we we'll never know it ( you cant know it if you believe you will never achieve it)
[Friend]
Nope
So you'll always have doubt
And seek to learn more
( ;
[Chaorder Gradient]
haha
[Friend]
What would be the point in knowing the absolute truth about anything?
Let alone everything...?
I'd be bored
[Chaorder Gradient]
So you're okay with understanding that maybe everything you know is wrong (well methinks you gotta accept that to retain sanity)
[Friend]
So yes, I firmly hold that whether or not there are any absolute truths out there we currently lack the capacity to know them
Well...
It's being open to the idea that anything you think you know might not be true
And at the same time realizing that you operate in a world of relative truths based on assumptions of perceptions
[Friend]
A real world example, of sorts...
The rules in Guild Wars, Diablo 2, StarCraft, and World of Warcraft are all absolute (assuming not using a hack to break them) within their respective virtual realities
What if the same is true for existing on Earth, or in the Sol System, or in the Miklyway, or in this / the Universe?
Could there be another place where the rules are different?
I think yes
Do I know all of the rules, even in a rather finite sampling? Probably not...
So why should I find absolute truth necessary?
[Chaorder Gradient]
sry went afk for a sec
ahh but in that sense, since our reality does not extend much further past the solar system, the milky way the "known universe" we can treat the information we get as truth
and adapt as we go
i personally believe that assuming the "big bang" story is true, it was not the only "big bang" in time or space, and that certain ones even may have completely different conditions and properties
[Friend]
Pretty much
[Chaorder Gradient]
but if you treat this "known universe" (the one created by "our" "big bang") as our own little prison, you have to know the rules to know how to escape it
just like the mundane reality is a prison of sorts
[Friend]
Yes
But knowing the rules doesn't make the an absolute truth
[Chaorder Gradient]
we can always adapt and evolve as long as we so desire and dont get bogged down in the silly things
[Friend]
An absolute truth is one that no matter what perspective you look at it from, it remains the same
[Chaorder Gradient]
if you're a prisoner, all that matters is that you have less freedom than you would outside of it. and its truth enough for you
you have to use not-so-absolute stepping stones to even approach the absolute ones
[Friend]
So I hold that we are prisoners of our senses, perceptions, and our cognitive ability
[Chaorder Gradient]
(we totally re-engaged this argument... i think i have more fodder this time though)
[Friend]
So all truths we find are only true in that framework
[Chaorder Gradient]
but as we surpass the cycle of life and death, we can create minds that are outside the sense-prison
but the sense prison is a much higher obstacle than the ones we are fighting right now
[Friend]
Maybe
But how do you know when you're completely outside of the prison?
[Chaorder Gradient]
you don't, you just get a little farther every time
[Friend]
So truth is relative
( ;
[Chaorder Gradient]
eventually we enter the esoteric realm, which is orders of magnitude more complex than what we are currently working with
you're treating it as relative, i'm treating it as a journey, an adventure
you cannot know everything because its beyond our scope, but you can get farther than anyone else if you so desire
[Friend]
Except that I held that the lack of ability to know any absolute truth drives us to learn more
So we both have an adventure element
You just don't like my phrasology
You find it defeatist... ( ;
[Chaorder Gradient]
hehe i guess so
well, I see it as in this life, there is an end, or an acheivable goal. And that point is to pass the baton to someone(something?) else
[Friend]
Not to help you procrastinate or anything
[Chaorder Gradient]
but i lurve procrastination
[Friend]
Ron Paul on Colbert...
Oh dear
[Chaorder Gradient]
really
[Friend]
Yeah
[Chaorder Gradient]
whens this happening
[Friend]
Tonight
icefilms.info
[Chaorder Gradient]
should be entertaining
[Chaorder Gradient]
hehe i made up a religion:
"
Nothing and Everything:
Everything, is All you do know.
Nothing is all that exist that you do not know.
One's Everything does not overlap with another's,
Nor does ones Nothing overlap with another's.
More often than not, one's Everything overlaps with another's Nothing.
Understanding this is a dire paradox to be contemplated.
"
[Friend]
Mmmm
[Chaorder Gradient]
nice mindfuck :)
[Friend]
Not really
[Chaorder Gradient]
i like the description i gave it
[Friend]
Simple concept
[Chaorder Gradient]
well not for you
simple for those that understand it... most dont
[Friend]
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704547604576263261679848814.html#mod=djempersonal
I was reading this today
I haven't finished yet
Human predictability when looked at as an organism is very easy
Individuals can be charted with reasonable accuracy but require far more information
Why this is novel in this article seems silly...
Asimov wrote about it in the 60's or 70's
And all one had to do was open their eyes at that point to realize what he said was true
But I guess people don't think critically about what is out there to read
(Also, I don't make the presumption that Asimov had the original idea... I'm just pointing to a place where one could start connecting the dots from)
/tangent?
This may sound weird...
But I think I
I've allowed myself to look at the world in such existential or more so, at such a distance, that I have a hard time with personal empathy
It could also be that I was engaged and haven't had any sort of intimate relationship in over two years
But I prefer the cognitive evolution argument better
[Chaorder Gradient]
sry was takin a quick shower
[Friend]
I can type shit faster than you can clean yourself
BAM!
[Chaorder Gradient]
oh yeah i've kinda lost my handle on normal human reality myself
but i like it here
[Friend]
I dunno... I feel like I better understand humanity
[Chaorder Gradient]
in all honesty i got an interesting short circuit from losing a good number of my friends in 1 way or another in favor of {FriendD}
[Friend]
But am apathetic to the individual people themselves
[Chaorder Gradient]
i'm kinda the other way though, i'm more empathetic now
I can see where just about everyone i know has gone wrong, how they've become misguided, and i can see myself in them a little bit in a different way
[Friend]
For sure
Also, I've gotten better at saying the right thing
[Chaorder Gradient]
also {FriendD} and I have essentially made up and are perfectly fine with eachother, even sans the relationship
no need for the akward :-P
[Friend]
But it's more mechanical, scientific, and sure than before
It's like pressing buttons
[Chaorder Gradient]
i'm sort of bridging the path, i'm moving into my own reality where i have to pick and choose between the mechanical reality and the human reality
[Friend]
I'd say I've moved to the realm of human mechanics
And I've also gotten better at maintaining complete inner balance
[Chaorder Gradient]
I've become AWARE of human mechanics, but with the understanding that each person has their own unique path
some fall into stereotypes, and then you can generalize, but theres always a little uniqueness there
(its just nice to know i'm not the only one on this kind of path, you're presence is much appreciated :-P)
[Friend]
No, I know... but I mean, like I find it real easy to pick out the words to make someone smile, laugh, or feel better when down
Almost like typing commands on a keyboard
At the individual level
[Chaorder Gradient]
oh true, I think once you break out, that is one of the first things you learn
[Friend]
With relatively little analysis
[Chaorder Gradient]
right, it's a little disorienting, and dehumanizing, but you gotta roll with it hehe
[Friend]
I think I grok humanity
And grok people
[Chaorder Gradient]
yeah
[Friend]
I <3 Stranger In A Strange Land
[Chaorder Gradient]
wots that? :-P
[Friend]
Awesome book
Heinlein
[Chaorder Gradient]
what was that book with the crazy insane meta-writing in it?
[Friend]
His best
meta-writing?
You mean House of Leaves?
[Chaorder Gradient]
yeahh that was it
[Friend]
My book of weird?
[Chaorder Gradient]
yarr
still need to read that
[Friend]
Read....
Stranger
Atlas Shrugged
And then watch Avatar: The Last Airbender: Legend of Ankh
(All three seasons)
[Chaorder Gradient]
have you read GEB yet? it will possibly shake your belief that you "know" people simply on the basis of the concept of actually knowing something
[Friend]
GEB?
[Chaorder Gradient]
Whats Legend of the Ankh? i'm in the middle of watching Avatar
[Friend]
It's the TV series from Nick
[Chaorder Gradient]
related to the last airbender
?
[Friend]
It kind of had two names
Yeah
[Chaorder Gradient]
ohh
so the same show
yeah i'm in the middle of it, amazing show
[Friend]
Best show ever
[Chaorder Gradient]
arguably, yes
you should watch Ugly Americans, my favorite social comentary show
[Friend]
Mmm
Will I end up disgusted?
I'm becoming progressively less interested in Americans...
[Chaorder Gradient]
uhm, it can be lewd at times, but with the understanding that mythical creatures don't actually exist, and you insert real people in the places of the monsters and demons and zombies, its glorious social comedy
no its about how disgusting americans are
(i'm gettin disgusted with them as well, the social fault lines are building a damning pressure)
[Friend]
Indeed
Real shame too...
It doesn't need to be this way
[Chaorder Gradient]
yeah, i mean there are some bastions of hope around, but I cant see anything getting better without it getting worse personally
i'm not being nihilistic, its just the way it seems to be going
[Friend]
No, agreed
Though...
I am tempted to start a social awakening
But only so tempted
[Chaorder Gradient]
I'm sorta right there with you.. lol but i dont know where/how to start
i'm currently just trolling the internet in certain places, mostly Disinfo(sort of an atheist bastion... almost too much so)
[Friend]
Actually...
I have a plan
[Chaorder Gradient]
hehe
[Friend]
One that would work, most likely
[Chaorder Gradient]
hehe
[Friend]
But I'm not sure I want to
[Chaorder Gradient]
well i'm aware that it is truly a crisis of faith of the entire country (and the more you dig the more you see it as the whole world.... which is daunting)
hence my not knowing how/where to start
[Friend]
Gmail
It's tertiary, but you're smart enough to put it together
{FriendC} is not on the cognitive level I am, but she understands media
And she can help create viral youtube videos, which are essential
Also, she's a bit idealistic and peace loving for my standards
But she grasps necessity
Even if she'll disagree with some of the "evil" my ideas may unleash
[Chaorder Gradient]
humm
yeah i guess it would be necessary
yeah i'm trying to reduce the evil as much as possible
[Friend]
I'm not out for violence
I just see it as an acceptable consequence
[Chaorder Gradient]
the end goal will require violence i fear
[Friend]
What we need is first contact
What any rational alien species that did not mean us harm would never give us is just that
I feel humans lack scope
Both in terms of humanity and the universe
Knowing and embracing that your personal Everything is in reality Nothing is the hardest thing for people to grasp
Yet it is the essential element
Or at least one of them
[Chaorder Gradient]
agreed
I mean, is it really that difficult to function in a world in which you are unimportant and know nothing compared to the collective knowledge out there to be known?
[Chaorder Gradient]
yarp
but trying to understand the whole can make someone go mad
[Friend]
But understanding that you don't need to understand the whole but still need to learn...
I think that's wisdom
What's funny is how true on how many levels that is
I mean, blinkin' simple concept
And so true in the humans unit
In relationships
In everything
[Chaorder Gradient]
hehe
[Friend]
The ability to embrace yourself, to embrace others, to seek to learn about both, and to be comfortable knowing that you will never know everything about either
Dana once asked me how I could love someone I didn't know everything about
I told her that I didn't know everything about myself, let alone someone else, and if I required that I knew everything about someone in order to love them, then I could never love anyone
I don't think the answer set well with her
[Chaorder Gradient]
good way of looking at things
its a style of thought that most people dont have
One thing that is holding me back is knowing that we dont know the stakes and repercussions to attempting an awakening
there ARE people besides us that are awakened, and they have made the conscious choice to not pursue what we desire
and there are people who are NOT awakened, but have gotten a taste, and throw their lives away at a relatively minute task
[Friend]
Yes, I know
[Chaorder Gradient]
its still really complex, and I'm still trying to piece it all together (all while trying to finish my schooling.. and looking for a job... and all tihs other crap thats looking more and more mundane...)
[Friend]
Yep
I go to school to get a job...
I get a job so I can provide for my needs and maybe some of my wants
I'm not sure where living is
[Chaorder Gradient]
hehe
[Friend]
Honestly, Avatar made me feel more emotions than many other things in a long time
Or at least much deeper
[Chaorder Gradient]
its a brilliant piece of art, that I'm sure of
i've (unfortunately) seen the ending, but i'm only half way through
beautiful ending though
and i kinda cant wait till the next series
(hopefully it doesnt go downhill like so many good things have)
[Friend]
The ending is good... but how they got there is so much more important
[Chaorder Gradient]
i know, i've seen enough to know that
i had a lull in watching it so i'm gunna start it over
i meant to ask, did you ever see the movie?
[Friend]
I'm going to buy it on DVD
The live action one?
[Chaorder Gradient]
yeah
[Friend]
Yes
[Chaorder Gradient]
what i realized watching it, (and it made it better, even though the critics will say it is terrible) is that it was not made for youth, it was meant to scarethe shit out of their parents
[Friend]
Also...
I think these days I'm a Taoist
[Chaorder Gradient]
racism was blatant in the movie; and it was built in a way where the "before the war" time, the air nomads WERE buhdist monks
i even think they wear the same uniform
[Friend]
Yes
[Chaorder Gradient]
I identify with taoism, but i find i got a little confuscionism in there
[Friend]
Well yes
That too
[Chaorder Gradient]
i see the importance of the "mundane" so to speak
because without at least a trivial understanding of it, yo uwill unwwittingly leave the rest of humanity behind (and effectively become a new Hitler)
[Friend]
Heh
I know I have that potential
[Chaorder Gradient]
haha
you know what i realized this all is though
what we've both probably stumbled on
and its a little daunting
is the knowledge of good and evil
[Friend]
Huh
That is an interesting way of framing it
[Chaorder Gradient]
It gets complex when you realize Yin and Yang are NOT good and evil
[Friend]
I see it
[Chaorder Gradient]
but, this gets into the real complexity and pitfalls, because, i take it on faith that yin and yang are not good and evil, while another person could take yin and yang as good as evil and be as adamant as I am
[Friend]
Yin and Yang can be good and evil
But good and evil are not definite
Nor do they work against each other at all times
[Chaorder Gradient]
well yeah
its transient, differnt times they can be aligned and others they can not be
[Friend]
I think it is more the awareness that good and evil are intertwined in ways not fathomed
[Chaorder Gradient]
right
I feel the gut is really the only way to go by... you just kindof know what is and isnt
[Friend]
That in reality it is all about balance
[Chaorder Gradient]
yep
[Friend]
Hah... I miss conversations with you
[Chaorder Gradient]
haha
[Friend]
And {FriendA}, she could usually keep up
It usually got too theoretical for {FriendB} though
[Chaorder Gradient]
another daunting idea, is the concept that balance, and neutrality are synonymous with death, they are the reduction of opposing forces to nothingness
i miss {FriendA} she was cool.
[Friend]
She's still in Miami
[Chaorder Gradient]
i've seen her around once or twice, but not in a while
[Friend]
I don't think balance and neutrality need to be synonymous with life, death, or anything
I think they are independent yet intertwined concepts
Synonyms all too frequently hide a reality under or within something else
[Chaorder Gradient]
i probably need to lay off some of the esoterica :-P
very true
[Friend]
Especially when talking this abstract
[Chaorder Gradient]
one part of the simple reality (i like to call it the illusion) is the polarization of the mind: Yin: Yang, Good:Evil, Order:Chaos, Black:White. etc.
[Friend]
Yes
Love:Hate
[Chaorder Gradient]
in the illusion:
Yang=Good=Order=White and
Yin = Evil = Chaos = Black
[Friend]
Strong:Weak
Any diametrically opposed concepts fail
[Chaorder Gradient]
indeed
[Friend]
So long as asserted to be opposed
[Chaorder Gradient]
2 = 4 (the negation and combination)
it blows up in their mind, short circuits, and becomes scary
[Friend]
I also find it interesting when people think that such abstract ideas as discussed here cannot be embraced and practiced in daily life
As if they exist in another realm of existence
[Chaorder Gradient]
Well, you have to understand... that they do
[Friend]
Sort of...
[Chaorder Gradient]
the physical reality overlaps
[Friend]
Our abstractions are grounded in our physical and perceptual reality
[Chaorder Gradient]
but the mental reality are so disjointed that they consider the confusing the "Enemy"
thats what Satan is
[Friend]
Our reality is molded by our abstractions
[Chaorder Gradient]
its just that which cannot be understood in the simple reality
(I have however come to the conclusion that the simple reality is a force of order. Stupidity breeds conformity, breeds fear of the complex, and the other)
[Friend]
Mmm
[Chaorder Gradient]
My diametric curse that works out well in my head is the concept of low-frequency (analogous to order) and high-frequency (analagous to chaos)
[Friend]
Both ultimately a wave pattern just with different characteristics?
[Chaorder Gradient]
well the high frequency always has a higher frequency and the low frequency always has a lower frequency
if you can manipulate orders of magnitude, the mechanics of human relation are the same throughout
its just that directionality exists in this model
(totally saving this convo btw)
[Friend]
I know, but I'm saying that the beauty in your model is that it fits on one continuum
[Chaorder Gradient]
i've come to the point where I cannot actually project my real ideas unless i'm talking with someone lol
[Friend]
And therefore isn't consisting of diametrically opposed forces
[Chaorder Gradient]
yes and no :-P its sort of a paradox
there arent 2 opposing forces because it goes infinite in both directions
[Friend]
I'm saying it doesn't have to be
( ;
[Chaorder Gradient]
but they are oppositedirections and work differently
(personally though, another scary thought... i have a lot of those, is that i think this line that this continuum involves seems to be the directionality in evolotion)
but at some point the higher frequency realizes the importance of the low frequency (and I HOPE vice versa but I havnt seen it)
[Friend]
But I would say chaos and order are simply functions of existence
[Chaorder Gradient]
well they are emergent properties, they are states so to speak
[Friend]
And what is chaotic and what is orderly is simply a matter of perspective from any point on a continuum
[Chaorder Gradient]
for example, the controlled mass mind of the united states post-WW2 was VERY ordered
sometimes there is a dominant area though
[Friend]
A concrete example...
[Chaorder Gradient]
a second dimension in this realm though, so-called mental age. Most people arent awakened because they are kept at a very young mental age. Personally i consider my mind corrupted (I like to think of it as Alzheimers.. or ALL TIMERS) where i think from every age's perspective simultaneously
[Friend]
The chaos that is the sharing of information across the web is founded in the order that is a functional world wide network
[Chaorder Gradient]
right, the non-human factor... that gets into the area of the hypothetical singularity :-P i dont think too much about it
er i think about it i just dont like to :-P
[Friend]
But at the same time that very network is a crazy chaotic network that can be reduced to ordered hubs and so on
[Chaorder Gradient]
well order out of chaos eh?
[Friend]
And vice versa
Perspective
[Chaorder Gradient]
heh maybe order is just a relative perspective to something thats more chaotic
[Friend]
( ;
[Chaorder Gradient]
yup
perspective indeed
[Friend]
That's what I said awhile ago
lol
[Chaorder Gradient]
indeed you did
well back to my hypothetical frequency framework, that just means a general shift one way or the other as a whole
cus from some other perspective both the other two look more chaotic or more ordered
[Friend]
It means at any given point order exist in one direction and chaos in the other
[Chaorder Gradient]
(or if you are unfortunately in the middle....)
well i guess to be fair, you can never say you ARENT in the middle
unless you find out how to step outside of the framework
[Friend]
It's a continuum, thereby infinite, there is no middle
[Chaorder Gradient]
(thats why i've taken the pseudonym Chaorder Gradient)
[Friend]
Mmm
[Chaorder Gradient]
never had something i felt fit me so well :)
[Friend]
Also, I'm likely going to post this convo in a note... I doubt many will read all the way through it... it's kind of a harsh exercise in frame of mind...
[Chaorder Gradient]
plus i like this ancient woodcut that i've appropriated with the pilgrim stepping out of the mundane reality into the esoteric
I wont mind
I have a couple assorted random convo's.
[Friend]
Oh, I store interesting convos all the time
My hope would be that those I named, {FriendB}, {FriendA}, and {FriendC} would take no offense in how they are referred to
[Chaorder Gradient]
meh I hope they appreciate eccentric minds :-P we probably sound a bit conceited though....
which is in no way my intent
[Friend]
I think sometimes you're just bound to sound conceited
It's kind of funny though
Cause in reality nothing would make me happier to be able to have conversations this abstract with more people
It's just my experience that few people care to discuss this
[Chaorder Gradient]
well i'm perfectly happy to have people call me on my BS, i know theres a lot there, but the only real way to fix it is human interaction
[Friend]
Our measure and judgment of ability could be equally true for a willingness to engage in such a conversation
[Chaorder Gradient]
Ouroboros never got anywhere did he
i prefer not to censor myself, i prefer others to
I'm in a permanent state of learning
[Friend]
Pretty much
And observation
Did I ever tell you why I love science fiction?
[Chaorder Gradient]
por que?
[Friend]
Authors can write humanity however they see it, without comment on current or historical humanity
And can add whatever rules into a society as they see fir
fit*
[Chaorder Gradient]
hehe
[Friend]
I find science fiction to be the blank canvas of the authors who observe humanity and choose to comment
[Chaorder Gradient]
I think you're on the side of learning from the future, and i'm on the side of learning from the past
[Friend]
No, I learn from the past
Quite a bit
[Chaorder Gradient]
fair enough
i sometimes like to put words in other peoples mouth :-p just call me out on it
[Friend]
I just think that science fiction provides the most unadulterated critiques of society
Whenever they were writing
But often time, because of their less rigid framework it is more likely to be timeless...
Because reality may fit differently but just as well into a commentary as it did 50 years ago
And yet not be dated
[Chaorder Gradient]
Well in reality, we still dont really get messages from the future, just a 1000 interpretations of the present, and science fiction is a nice way of doing it
[Friend]
The best way in my opinion
[Chaorder Gradient]
arguably
[Friend]
For example, Asimov's Foundation Series will likely be applicable for hundreds of years
And Card's comments on humanity in the Ender series will likely apply for at least 100
And parts for much longer
[Chaorder Gradient]
indeed
[Friend]
Dune is harder to fit...
[Chaorder Gradient]
i think i still need to read dune...
theres a lot of shit i need to read really
[Friend]
Always
[Chaorder Gradient]
hehe yea
[Friend]
One of my favorite quotes:
"When he said, 'Reality is only just a word.'" - Harry Chapin, from my song.
The only quote on my FB profile
[Chaorder Gradient]
hehe
[Friend]
I think it epitomizes a lot of what we've talked about
"'Reality' is only just a word"
[Chaorder Gradient]
indeed
trust me, i'm working with at least 3 or 4 potentially conflicting frameworks at once. I accept this is towards the direction of insanity, but i feel the understanding of this keeps me sane
[Friend]
I'm not sure I have a framework
Not an external one
I think my framework is one of perspective and outlook
[Chaorder Gradient]
well i find it hard to say that you lack a framework, but that you just arent aware of it
[Friend]
Internal to the individual
My framework is one of approach, of how to perceive the world, the universe, whatever, not of how it might actually all fall into place
[Chaorder Gradient]
hehe i'm understanding of the complexity, but I do feel there is a natural order of things that we have yet to figure out (or possibly forgot)
[Friend]
Unified Theory?
[Chaorder Gradient]
this goes back to that one argument we had that one time about you saying its impossible to know anything (or that truth doesnt exist i forget), which i was against it
[Friend]
Ah...
Yes
It's impossible to know empirical truth
We lack the scope
( ;
[Chaorder Gradient]
i think we agreed that truth exists, but it may be possible that we will never know it :-P
i'm still fighting that we we'll never know it ( you cant know it if you believe you will never achieve it)
[Friend]
Nope
So you'll always have doubt
And seek to learn more
( ;
[Chaorder Gradient]
haha
[Friend]
What would be the point in knowing the absolute truth about anything?
Let alone everything...?
I'd be bored
[Chaorder Gradient]
So you're okay with understanding that maybe everything you know is wrong (well methinks you gotta accept that to retain sanity)
[Friend]
So yes, I firmly hold that whether or not there are any absolute truths out there we currently lack the capacity to know them
Well...
It's being open to the idea that anything you think you know might not be true
And at the same time realizing that you operate in a world of relative truths based on assumptions of perceptions
[Friend]
A real world example, of sorts...
The rules in Guild Wars, Diablo 2, StarCraft, and World of Warcraft are all absolute (assuming not using a hack to break them) within their respective virtual realities
What if the same is true for existing on Earth, or in the Sol System, or in the Miklyway, or in this / the Universe?
Could there be another place where the rules are different?
I think yes
Do I know all of the rules, even in a rather finite sampling? Probably not...
So why should I find absolute truth necessary?
[Chaorder Gradient]
sry went afk for a sec
ahh but in that sense, since our reality does not extend much further past the solar system, the milky way the "known universe" we can treat the information we get as truth
and adapt as we go
i personally believe that assuming the "big bang" story is true, it was not the only "big bang" in time or space, and that certain ones even may have completely different conditions and properties
[Friend]
Pretty much
[Chaorder Gradient]
but if you treat this "known universe" (the one created by "our" "big bang") as our own little prison, you have to know the rules to know how to escape it
just like the mundane reality is a prison of sorts
[Friend]
Yes
But knowing the rules doesn't make the an absolute truth
[Chaorder Gradient]
we can always adapt and evolve as long as we so desire and dont get bogged down in the silly things
[Friend]
An absolute truth is one that no matter what perspective you look at it from, it remains the same
[Chaorder Gradient]
if you're a prisoner, all that matters is that you have less freedom than you would outside of it. and its truth enough for you
you have to use not-so-absolute stepping stones to even approach the absolute ones
[Friend]
So I hold that we are prisoners of our senses, perceptions, and our cognitive ability
[Chaorder Gradient]
(we totally re-engaged this argument... i think i have more fodder this time though)
[Friend]
So all truths we find are only true in that framework
[Chaorder Gradient]
but as we surpass the cycle of life and death, we can create minds that are outside the sense-prison
but the sense prison is a much higher obstacle than the ones we are fighting right now
[Friend]
Maybe
But how do you know when you're completely outside of the prison?
[Chaorder Gradient]
you don't, you just get a little farther every time
[Friend]
So truth is relative
( ;
[Chaorder Gradient]
eventually we enter the esoteric realm, which is orders of magnitude more complex than what we are currently working with
you're treating it as relative, i'm treating it as a journey, an adventure
you cannot know everything because its beyond our scope, but you can get farther than anyone else if you so desire
[Friend]
Except that I held that the lack of ability to know any absolute truth drives us to learn more
So we both have an adventure element
You just don't like my phrasology
You find it defeatist... ( ;
[Chaorder Gradient]
hehe i guess so
well, I see it as in this life, there is an end, or an acheivable goal. And that point is to pass the baton to someone(something?) else
Saturday, April 2, 2011
Grass roots organizations
To destroy grass roots organizations, all you have to do is strip the soil (bottom up support) and stop the rain (top down support). Is that really so difficult?
Saturday, February 26, 2011
Random Comment #1
Original Comment:
we'll soon go extinct if we ever stop fighting, all of our greatest works and accomplishments have come from conflict.
Response:
I'd be more inclined to think that many of our greatest works and accomplishments have been achieved despite the conflict and not because of them. Currently we're back to a childish mentality where we are still afraid of the cycles of life and death, rather than embracing the understanding of mortality. The first thing we need to reform our ideas that stem from life, death, and of course birth.
We still cannot get it through our head that a child born in a terrifying world will be terrified, and a child born in a holy world will be holy. We've become obsessed with these ideas of genetics determining personality, and our insistence that because I am me, I must be the most important and therefore the most "genetically perfect". We don't understand that we continue to associate with our own beliefs as being the best(because its all that we know). This only increases as we become more and more mentally separated. Slowly as we delve into the internet, and as our children delve even further into their own self-serving persona's via facebook and the like, we will drift away from other humans and therefore humanity itself.
Because I have decided that "I" am genetically perfect, everyone except me must die, and I must give birth to the entire new super-race of me-copies, where all my rules are followed by my me-copies. I must be the new Adam or the new Eve. Maybe I can use the power of science to make me both the new Adam AND the new eve via cloning. And thus chaos ensues.
Conflict is bred from our attitudes, not the other way around.
(Okay rant over.. I got carried away....)
we'll soon go extinct if we ever stop fighting, all of our greatest works and accomplishments have come from conflict.
Response:
I'd be more inclined to think that many of our greatest works and accomplishments have been achieved despite the conflict and not because of them. Currently we're back to a childish mentality where we are still afraid of the cycles of life and death, rather than embracing the understanding of mortality. The first thing we need to reform our ideas that stem from life, death, and of course birth.
We still cannot get it through our head that a child born in a terrifying world will be terrified, and a child born in a holy world will be holy. We've become obsessed with these ideas of genetics determining personality, and our insistence that because I am me, I must be the most important and therefore the most "genetically perfect". We don't understand that we continue to associate with our own beliefs as being the best(because its all that we know). This only increases as we become more and more mentally separated. Slowly as we delve into the internet, and as our children delve even further into their own self-serving persona's via facebook and the like, we will drift away from other humans and therefore humanity itself.
Because I have decided that "I" am genetically perfect, everyone except me must die, and I must give birth to the entire new super-race of me-copies, where all my rules are followed by my me-copies. I must be the new Adam or the new Eve. Maybe I can use the power of science to make me both the new Adam AND the new eve via cloning. And thus chaos ensues.
Conflict is bred from our attitudes, not the other way around.
(Okay rant over.. I got carried away....)
Sunday, February 13, 2011
Evil People
It seems that evil people and demons, are those who struggle with questions of morality that single-celled organisms tend not to have trouble understanding, yet inhabit a body of something greater.
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